I Tried to Be a Misogynist
Coughing Up The Red Pill
I took way too long in writing this essay. It’s been on the back burner for a few years, and when I finally looked at it again, I found it a very good idea to shorten it considerably, and not just because of laziness. I’d initially intended it to be a very long, introspective piece about why I initially fell into the misogynist/right-wing morass and how I got out, but the more I thought about it, the more I figured my “personal story” wouldn’t be that interesting. That, and also it’s been so long that I barely remember why I even got into that scene in the first place. As you’ll see, I had to make extensive use of the Wayback Machine to recollect some of my sources, and since I never had a manosphere blog, the only evidence of how I thought in my earlier, dumber days comes from my memories, which have faded over the course of over a decade. What’s much more important, however, is a focused and concise explanation of not primarily how but *why* I left that scene.
Like I implied above, I have only old memories of how I fell into that crap in the first place, though looking it up, I think it was also related to the reasons I fell into the right-wing, ‘anti-SJW’ scene when I was younger. That was in the mid 00s, my flirtation with the manosphere was in the late 00s and early 10s. My uni had (to put it mildly) a significant hard-left community; I could walk around and see posters advertising weird presentations on “radical witches,” and online in various communities (videogame related and not) I often saw a lot of flame wars and drama revolving around feminism and gender politics. It didn’t help that more than a few of my good male friends hadn’t had the most positive experiences with women, either romantically or professionally.
Thus, at that point in my life I was pretty receptive to general manosphere messaging. “Relationships seem like a drag? Screw ‘em, you don’t need one! Feminism and feminists look looney? Bro, we’ve got all the answers, we know it’s all a load of hooey, and more than that too! Have problems in your life? Feminists are ruining government, the economy, everything! Come join us, bro, just read our blogs and maybe make one of your own and YOU can be part of Taking Back Our Culture and Winning the Gender Wars!”
Thankfully, I never bothered with the second part of that, making a specifically manosphere blog. As I’ve said before, my involvement with that scene was primarily devouring the content of other blogs, and occasionally dropping snippets of “red-pills” on my own blog (Livejournal, at the time, IIRC) and in conversation with friends online and offline. However, a funny thing happened. The more I read of manosphere blogs—and like I said, I read very extensively, from Roissy to Kid Strangelove to the hardest of the hardcore MGTOW forums—the more I started to notice that what they said wasn’t internally consistent. I don’t mean just individual bloggers having beefs or disagreeing with each other, I mean that the prevailing ideologies—and they were ideologies, not “praxeologies” or whatever they might call it—required you to believe two things that couldn’t both be true. I also noticed that more than a few of my erstwhile “comrades” were very far from living up to their own ideals, and indeed, seemed to cause themselves a whole lot more trouble than any feminist ever did or even could. And most importantly of all, I noticed that other manospherians, including some very prominent ones in that scene like Pook, had came to these same conclusions, and were leaving because of it. All these factors led to me following the same path, and where I am now—ironically enough, not only having abjured misogyny and gained an appreciation for feminism, but somewhat on the political left, but not because I’m a “mangina” desperate to curry favor for women, but simply because “feminism” and left-wing policies offer more benefit and less threat to me than drama-filled, psychotic manospherians. The next sections of this essay will provide the evidence I gleaned, over a span of several years, to support these conclusions.
To begin with, a brief overview of terms: Manosphere = The collection of blogs and websites generally dedicated to opposing feminism in some form, I don’t use the term to refer to the loose collection of men’s interest blogs and sites generally.
Manospambot: This derisive term’s been floating around for a long time to poke fun of a lot of manospherians, who are often both repetitive and hilariously/superlatively angry about things they probably shouldn’t be.
MGTOW: “Men Going Their Own Way,” ostensibly guys who just aren’t interested in relationships and focused on being happy bachelors, but as I’ve written before and will expound on here, there’s way more anger, drama, and general nonsense prevalent in that scene than you’d expect if they were just a group of chill bachelors.
PUA: Pick-Up Artists, guys dedicated to scoring with as many girls as possible.
Red-Pill: The collection of beliefs ostensibly suppressed by society which proves that men and women are not only physically and psychologically different but also that feminism ruins societies, women need to be oppressed for the maintenance of civilization, and so on, and so forth.
Hypergamy: The supposed tendency of women to “date up,” but as we’ll see, manospherians seem to be unable to decide on what “up” actually means.
I: Failure to live up to their own ideals
Manospherians generally believe two things. The first is that men are better than women in every sense—intellectually, morally, physically, and so on. The second is that manospherians themselves are richer, better-looking, more masculine, etc. than all the “blue-pilled simps” or whatever.
The moral element is what I want to focus on first in particular. It’s essentially a manospambot article of faith that women are “amoral” because they did absolutely nothing throughout history except sit around and plop out babies, whereas men needed to evolve honor, altruism, etc. because we were the ones who hunted and so on. And old entry from Roissy has a quote straight from the horse’s mouth, and no further evidence is needed though you can find plenty if you look—this is just a manosphere article of faith, really.
“Women as a whole are more coldly calculating than men, and the worst of them can challenge the top 1% of sociopathic alpha males for deceitfulness and cavalier betrayal. It is the prerogative of women that practical concerns, and how to achieve them, dominate their thinking and catalyze their emotions. They are the ones stuck with nine month pregnancies. Morality was codified by men; amorality perfected by women. And no one is more versed in justifying and rationalizing their own shitty behavior than a woman.”
By the same token, manospherians and mgtows often complained that women brought nothing but drama to communities while primarily or only-male groups were peaceful nests of camaderie, brotherhood, good feelings, and efficiency. I used to believe this myself; my old friends (and enemies) could tell you I spouted this sort of stuff a lot when I was younger. You can find the most extreme version of this worldview in the “Bob’s Truth” blog, in the hypothetical about what would happen if all women disappear (spoilers: Men invent the artificial womb and create a utopia!):
Here’s the problem, though: As I lurked on various manosphere blogs and websites over the years, I saw that manospambots themselves never—never—demonstrated honor, honesty, camaderie, and all that other stuff themselves. I constantly, incessantly, non-stop witnessed the sort of drama, pettiness, cattiness, and betrayal manosphere drones claimed was the exclusive province of women. I’ll describe a few—just a few—of the examples I’ve seen over the years.
A: Drama and bullshit
The first big blowup that really comes to my mind was in 2013. In 2010 or thereabouts, the MGTOW faction of the manosphere, which I’ve described before, had a sizeable presence on Reddit and other places, but one of their biggest strongholds were the MGTOW forums, run by a guy named Nacho Vidal. They were big, they were active, and most importantly, many of their members had actually paid a decent bit of change to pay for its server hosting. You’d think a community of all guys, none of whom were “manginas” or liked women much at all, would be full of camaraderie, good times, honor between members, and all that, right? Nah. One day, Nacho Vidal just up and shut down the MGTOW forums, no warning, certainly no refunds to the donators, nothing. Various “competitors,” including A Voice for Men and the Red Pill subreddit, promptly jumped on him and the MGTOW forums. He’d left a nasty message explaining why he did it, shitting on pretty much everyone who’d supported him over the years:
Now, before I say anything else, even at the time I was starting to consider that Mr. Vidal had a point when he dismissed MGTOWs as “a successful concept for incels and psychos.” I’ll get into that in the next sub-section, but even when the MGTOW forums were still up, I could tell it was mostly bitching about women, often in completely unhinged ways, which kinda contradicted the whole “we’re Going Our Own Way and don’t even care about women!” feel they tried to give off. But more immediately, all the drama made started making me think about whether or not men, or at least manospherians, actually were any “morally” better than feminists and/or women in general. Like I said, Nacho essentially stole from all the people who contributed to him—even if the community was cancerous, and it was, you’d expect “male honor” would give his fans (and donators) some advance notice. And even more than that, think about the obvious delight of other manospherians at their fellow traveler’s misfortune—look at the links posted above. The AVFM guys and the Red Pill reddit guys both gloating about how they totally knew this was gonna happen. It seemed to me like ‘brotherhood’ wasn’t actually one of the manosphere’s strong suits.
Similar drama occurred a few years later in MGTOWland, btw—in 2017, another famous MGTOW (barbarossaaa)’s site went down, and another MGTOW gloated about its misfortune, saying that ol’ Bar Bar wasn’t a “true” MGTOW and so on:
So yeah, yet another instance of a bunch of guys supposedly “going their own way,” and supposedly enjoying drama-free camaraderie with their fellow men, falling over each other and kicking another one when he was down because of differences in MGTOW ideology, which supposedly shouldn’t exist at all. And it gets even worse—there was a lot of doxing and accusations flying around that whole scene. One example:
Bar Bar and some other MGTOWs got doxed, they blamed it on AVFM, AVFM blamed it on others, like a guy named Tim Shmiggen, and the wheel of accusations went round and round. I don’t know what the truth of it was, and I don’t care—that these kinds of accusations were even flying around the manosphere in the first place illustrates what a toxic scene it was. Remember, these guys complain constantly about women falsely accusing men (of rape, or just about anything), being dishonest and spiteful, causing drama, and all that. But here we have a bunch of the Manliest Men Around acting like contentious, backbiting vipers. Speaking as a man who’s not inclined to white-knighting for women: Why would I want to be a part of this? Speaking to the men in my audience who feel the same: Why would *you* want to be a part of this? What benefit could it bring us? Purely as a matter of self-interest, if the manosphere scene is at least—at least—as prone to drama, doxing, and infighting as the feminists seem to be, isn’t it a good idea to avoid them as well? Seeing stuff like this moved me closer and closer to that position by the mid 10s at the latest, as far as I can recall.
It gets grosser too, I should note. See this article:
It touches upon a subject I’ll get to at the end of this section as well, but the tl;dr is that a Men’s Rights conference ended up attracting at least one, and from what I’ve heard more, absolute weirdos and creeps. Again, as a straight guy, why would I want to join the manosphere if it’s got a bunch of weird predators who just want to molest other men? Absolute nonsense, and again it’s the manospherians who say they’re the honorable and moral ones. I suppose some of ‘em might point out that being on the left, I have nothing against gay guys, and that’s true—what I *do* dislike is creepy molestation. What a surprise, all the gay folks I’ve met since joining “the left” have respected me when I told them I wasn’t interested, unlike the absolute weirdos such as the conferencegoer in this article and the other loons we’ll meet later on in the essay you’re reading right now.
The list goes on and on, far outside AVFM, by the way. Accusations of fraud and plagiarism are pretty common, then and now. For instance, Mike Cernovich (who from what I hear is now just a general MAGA grifter) accused another big manosphere personality at the time, Tucker Max, of ripping off his content:
Even more recently, in 2019, another manosphere “convention” got bogged down in drama between some of its speakers, Rollo Tomassi and some other guys:
He might have acted pretty nice at the time, but things got ugly very quickly indeed:
Look through the comments—either Mr. Johnson was falsely accusing Rollo, or Rollo invited someone he shouldn’t have—and either way, yet again, the question arises: Why get involved with this shit? What benefit does it offer me as a man? Why shouldn’t I just do my own thing without associating with “anti-feminists” who don’t seem to be able to organize as much as a popsicle stand without blowing themselves up?
More than anything else, though, the Mark Minter saga from the early 10s really helped me shake off the manosphere indoctrination. Minter was a prolific commenter on sites like the Rational Male, acquiring a following for his endless screeds against marriage and women. An old Tao of Dirt post—and remember, this was another manosphere site that opposed feminism, thought feminists were “slores” and all that—described how Minter’s anti-marriage vitriol was too much even for him, but had gained a popular following on other sites:
“No one knows for sure who this guy is, but his comments have gotten alot of attention and have spawned numerous reprints and even a thread over at Roosh’s”
But, naturally, Minter’s star would fall in the manosphere, as they all eventually do. In 2013, he revealed he was marrying a single mom (an absolute cardinal sin among the manospherians) on Roissy’s blog, which absolutely cratered his reputation among his many followers and led to most of them feeling utterly betrayed:
“I hope his name will forever be synonymous with a man who doesn’t live by his own code. He deserves to be permanently exiled from the manosphere community. No more praise or compliments should be directed his way.”
The drama didn’t stop there, as arguments about Minter led to problems and friendships breaking up across the manosphere; for instance another blogger named xsplat got banned from Roosh’s forums for pointing out how utterly pathetic the issue made absolutely everyone involved look:
“Here are my comments from an RVF thread about it. My comments got me a 7 day ban there, but more surprisingly got Pitt a 1day ban. The thread was also locked right after the bans came down. I can only assume Pitts ban was for disagreeing with the moderators viewpoint. You can read the whole thread if you want to read them in context.”
Even in my manosphere-sympathetic phase I thought Minter was a little too extreme, but watching the scene blow up about him, yet again, made me reconsider my views. A manosphere “guru” turned out to be a raging hypocrite? His fans, including guys like Rollo and Roosh, who were supposed to be smarter, more rational, etc. etc. etc. than all the “manginas” and of course women and feminists, fell for him entirely? That got me thinking—maybe they were all wrong. Maybe it was all BS. If a joker like Minter could get so much acclaim and then blow it up in such a short span of time, maybe there wasn’t much “wisdom” to be found in the manosphere at all. And it wasn’t just me, a lot of other guys at this time were figuring out how dumb it all was. Some more choice quotes:
“The homo-paranoia and unmasculine fear that women are somehow taking over America as frantically perpetuated by RV forumers is laughable. But what is most revealing about Roosh is his banning of xsplat in the Minter thread. The forum gets its ass handed to them by xsplat and what do those fear mongers do? They ban xsplat and close the thread because Roosh worshipped Minter and xsplat had the balls to make him eat crow on the subject of Minter’s decision to get married. Now Roosh has gone radio silent again on the subject of the book “The Way of Men,” a book he was touting as The Holy Grail of the Manosphere until it was recently revealed it was written by a gay man. The anti-gay, all knowing, King Roosh is now having difficulty explaining how he keeps falling for the philosophies of married men and gays. Next he’ll be peddling Susan Faludi’s “Stiffed: The Betrayal of The American Man.” Lol. Can’t wait for that one.”
“As everyone in the sphere knows by now, Mark Minter is shacking up with that chick who habitually bombed comment threads everywhere. I could care less about his decision other than it shows that desperate dudes will fold every time at a whiff of vagina. Other than that, good luck have fun.
What I find more fascinating is that Minter, that most vociferous manospambot, who rivaled deti, vicomte, earl, and half of Dalrock’s unfortunately bad commentariat in prolific bot-ness, was outed as a true basement dweller. It serves as a good reminder for everyone on how many commenters are shit in real life and just how messed up the vast majority of passionate, FUCK MARRIAGE, FUCK AMERICAN GIRLS, HYPERGAMY, MGTOW ARRRGH!!! bots are.
You never know who is behind that screen, but chances are if they’re taking an extreme position that deals in absolutes and blanket statements, they’re probably some angry fatass with nothing to offer to you. That’s the truth, fuck off with your “shaming language” crap. People who have experience and know what they’re talking about rarely, if ever, talk like that because they know a) there are exceptions b) they haven’t seen everything in the world and c) the most knowledgeable people in any field are the first to admit a) and b).”
Couldn’t find much to argue with in that quote—and again, the ‘Fly Fresh and Young” guys were pretty big in the manosphere at the time. But Minter’s example was revealing on a personal as well as a social level. His example, and more than a few others, illustrated yet another inconsistency in the manosphere’s projected image: Namely, how pathetic, unfit, and maladjusted the members themselves, as individuals, tended to be.
B: General pathetic-ness
As I mentioned at the beginning of this section, manospherians in general tend to think of themselves as better than other men. This is partially because manosphere ideology in theory encourages you to get fit, make money, become socially adept, and so on, but it’s also because these guys believe they’re “redpilled” and possess knowledge all other pathetic, less-masculine “mangina” men don’t have. Now, the PUA types judge their worth on their attractiveness to women, while MGTOWs, who supposedly abjure women entirely, claim that other manospherians are just “dancing monkeys” who still “serve the pussy” or whatever, and claim to be superior based on different criteria. See this screed from a remaining MGTOW site, goingyourownway:
Let’s look at this guy’s definition of “actual value,” and keep in mind most MGTOWs, and most manospherians in general too for that matter, think they possess these traits:
-Actually means what he says
-Respects himself; respects others
-Has future orientation. Actually saves money.
-Good Judgment.Generally right about things and decisions he makes.
-Any of the following: Benevolent, Calm, Cheerful, Dignified, Disciplined,Dynamic, Enthusiastic, Focused, Genuine, Honorable, Friendly,Fun-loving, Kind, Principled, Purposeful, Secure, Warm,Humble.
– A sense of quality and taste in things that matter, a sense of humor, depth
– Any of the following: Active, Adaptable, Adventurous, Appreciative, Athletic,Clever, Confident, Conscientious, Creative, Daring, Decisive,Dedicated, Deep, Freethinking, Hardworking, Imaginative, Incisive,Organized, Original, Wise.
-Actual knowledge and skill that is applied whether towards interests,hobbies, work. Has passions and pursues them.”
Let’s look back at some of the examples we’ve just been discussing. Was Nacho Vidal “high actual value?” I dunno about his intelligence, but by his own admission he didn’t have good judgement and he apparently wasn’t trustworthy, given how he screwed over his own donators. Even more than that, was Mark Minter “high actual value?” No, for the same reasons. In fact, he didn’t even fulfill the “future orientation” criteria in terms of money, as people mentioned in the links I provided above, he was pretty poor and arguably got married to utilize his bride’s family’s money.
This was a manosphere “guru” who so many had puffed up before he “betrayed” them? That made me think there was more than a little hypocrisy to be found in that scene—these guys went on and on about how high-value they were, whether in terms of sexual attractiveness or intellectual or economic accomplishment, yet they turned out to be nobodies. And I certainly wasn’t the only one to notice this. 3 Bromigos was a pretty big manosphere site back in the day, and a guy there made the same point.
“When I was first introduced to the “manosphere”, I thought that everyone would be like me: striving for excellence and hell-bent on self improvement. The more I’ve been around, the more I’ve realised that the whole thing is a facade.
It’s a bitter place, mostly written by bitter guys. Retelling stories of “being alpha” and an asshole to girls is a front for the bitterness most feel at the hands of our opposite gender. Mostly due to not being successful with good looking girls. This sounds like a trivial and cliche attack you’d expect from a girl who’s stumbled upon the “manosphere”, but it’s true. There are very few legit people whose lifestyles match those of which they’re talking about.
I wrote in a post a while back that we have connections to some of the “bigger” people on this side of the internet, and I know stories about some of the guys you lot idolise that would instantly make you stop reading their blogs.
I’ve seen pictures of some of the people writing in the “manosphere” and I thought to myself, why the hell would I listen to this person for advice? Some of the guys’ pictures are out in the open, some have been seen by accident and some I’ve seen without their knowledge through the connections we have.
It’s really opened my eyes. Some of the most well known guys on here are absolute losers, but their writing is good and they get a lot of attention because of it. What can these guys teach me? Honestly? Nothing.
They can’t teach me about style, they can’t teach me about having sex with beautiful women and they can’t teach me about how to earn lots of money. Why? Because they’ve done none of it themselves.”
In addition to this, the MGTOWs themselves turned out to be pretty pathetic, despite their pretensions of being “high actual value.” I dunno what kinda guy Jagrmeister was, and maybe Nacho Vidal was successful in his personal life, but from what I’ve gathered, no self-proclaimed MGTOW who wandered out into the wild looked like somebody worthy of emulation. Again, a few years ago there was a big MGTOW on youtube named Sandman who once went to a “slutwalk” to make fun of it. His friends on /pol/ found a picture of him at the thing—he was in the right place judging by the perspective from his video on the subject—and he turned out to be a pasty, chubby dweeb (https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/37831448/#37831448 ). /pol/ not a reliable source? Yeah, fair enough, but then we have the infamous MGTOW trashbag guy:
The footage was taken straight from a (sympathetic) interview by Lauren Southern. I’m sorry, but there’s no way you’re convincing me that this guy isn’t a giant loser. He sure as hell doesn’t seem “high actual value.” Again, MGTOWs keep comparing themselves to interesting, accomplished guys and sometimes even superheroes like Batman or Han Solo (like this fella on Deviantart did: https://archive.is/FmH6V , also see the image here https://archive.is/SskUR) but they show up in real life and look like flabbier versions of Homer Simpson. If they were such hypocrites when it came to their personal presentation and accomplishments, I started to wonder if they were trustworthy when it came to anything else. Why should I believe some guy screaming about the evils of feminism and the inferiority of women if he was straight-up lying about how intelligent and accomplished he was IRL? If even other guys in the manosphere, like the above-quoted 3 bromigos, were starting to see how many fakers were in the scene, maybe more than a bit of skepticism was warranted towards all of it.
Further reading from the manosphere itself helped me understand why the scene lent itself too well to all the fakers, posers, and losers, and why so many of the guys who helped build it up were abandoning it—which told me I should do the same as well. Foreshadowing a larger point I’ll make in in the next paragraphs, the very nature of the manosphere encourages bitterness, misery, and general negativity and actively discourages self-improvement, despite what it says. 30 Days to X put it extremely well and succinctly:
“Any man who does even a modicum of what the manosphere preaches, i.e. lifting weights and improving themselves, would be too busy growing as a person and reaping the rewards of hard work to complain about what’s going on in the latest Jezebel article.”
Think about it: If you’re a successful man who’s making money, would you be complaining about how feminism is “oppressing” you? No, because you’re a winner, not oppressed. If you’ve got a good life, you’re not going to sit around grousing about women (or any other group, for that matter), as yet another old manosphere site, Embrace the Hunt, mentioned:
“I generally do not interact with much of the manosphere because I never had a taste for the bitterness that has been a mainstay for much of it. Only lately has this risen to the critical levels that has caused it to invade and infect my consciousness. The problem is that I am just not unhappy enough for that noise; my life is too good.”
Same thing another manosphere guy noticed:
“I mean, we’re supposed to be all about self-improvement, right? Last time I checked, self-improvement doesn’t involve being a bitter and whiny little bitch.
Just lay off the “FEMINISM SUX, AMIRITE?!?” articles for a while and focus on improving yourself.
Externalities do not control your life.
A commenter named Jim on another site, absoluteability, noticed it too:
“I don’t read the manosphere anymore because it seems like every other article is, either blatantly or subtly, proclaiming that whites are superior/insulting other races.
I don’t think many of them get laid at all. They come off as frustrated, lonely dudes that need to shit on others to make themselves feel like they are better than they are.
And I say this from experience. When I sucked at life, every little thing seemed like an affront to my core and resulted in intense emotional reactions.”
A PUA who went by Thumpy, and I’ll be quoting him a lot throughout, also made a great point about how the manosphere drags one down:
“Look, it’s fine to wake up one day and realize you’re a weak-ass chump. Lots of guys do it. The key difference is that you should start effecting change at a rather rapid pace once that realization has dick-slapped you across the face. If you’re still a bitter beta a year later, or heaven forbid 2, 3, 5, 10 years later… you ain’t ever gonna change. You are a permanent beta chump living in a world that no longer has any respect or need for beta chumps.
If that’s the case, quit blogging. Quit whining. Accept yourself and move to Alaska to be alone and enjoy the beautiful scenery there. I’m waiting for the day when MGTOW truly and permanently GTOW rather than just threaten to.”
Kid Strangelove, yet again, also described how the incessant negativity of the manosphere was starting to creep into his actual life, also touching on a subject we’ll return to quite soon, the prevalence of weirdo conspiracy theories in the scene:
“And I couldn’t stop these thoughts, it was as if I was primed to spit them out. It didn’t matter that my business partner and I are working on a side project that is weeks away from launch, it didn’t matter that I met some really cool girls over the weekend, it didn’t even matter that a giant group of my friends came out to celebrate my birthday and showed me a tremendous amount of love, none if it mattered, I just could not shake that feeling.
So I did what I always do – try to distract myself with some media.
And then it hit me – the media are enablers. Especially the manosphere.
Here are some of the articles available:
Look at this “blue pill” fag destroying his life. Lets laugh at him
Lol, women and men are different amirite?
I’m a winnerrrrr, you’re a lozerrrr, hahaha
Fat People are fat!
I fucked a HB90 because I’m a winner with game! Swag, swag, woop!
Considering I also like to read “non mainstream” political coverage because the mainstream media is hot garbage, you can also add:
Jews are ruining the world
Muslims are ruining the world
Black people are ruining the world
Every government official is listening in on everything you are doing.
To sum up all the media I consume – “Life sucks, deal with it or kill yourself.”
Naturally, he chose to start consuming other media—and at this point, I figured that would be a good choice for me too. My life was actually pretty good, even at a university with a sizable lefty contingent. Weird stuff like talks on “radical witches” didn’t affect me at all. Every woman I actually interacted with in my own department was nice to me and had a vested interest in my success, in fact one went out of my way to help me. In other words, I was living not in a fantasy world but a nightmare world, one which was far worse than reality. Abandoning the manosphere and its bitterness made logical, practical sense, and abandoning misogyny in general, as I’ve mentioned before ( https://gunlord500.wordpress.com/2014/05/27/giving-up-on-misogyny/) also made quite a bit of sense. So that’s what I did—no “simping” involved.
Now, some manospherians—maybe some MGTOWs, and maybe some incels—might tell me that negativity is necessary for whatever reason—reminding unfortunate men of how to “avoid women” and fight off their natural urges or something. As it happened, in my journey out of the manosphere I found a lot of good critiques of that way of thinking as well, particularly from black manospherians, whose jaded perspective on the racism and other weird conspiracy crap taking hold of it (again, we’ll get back to this soon) helped me quite a bit. As one guy, Black Man Red Pill, mentioned,
“I can be pissed at women and a lot of their bullshit rationalizations. However, I can’t hate them. To me focusing on something you hate is a waste of energy. If you hate women so much, then why blog about them, and how to sleep with them. Why not post about a hobby or something?”
This is the same point I’ve raised about MGTOW before—like I said (https://gunlord500.wordpress.com/2013/10/04/why-im-not-a-mgtow/), why do I need an acronym to chill out and do my own thing? Another guy, Chase Amante—one of the “game” types, so not some kind of “mangina” or “simp” or whatever also thought so, while pointing out why the term itself had become so toxic:
“So far as I can tell, branding yourself a MGTOW is just another way to say you are a ‘loner’ or ‘independent’ or to proclaim you “don’t need anyone!”
You go your own way. You’re not trying to fit into the crowd. You don’t care about conforming to social norms. You do your own thing.
When I was young we just called guys like this loners.
Now I guess they’re called ‘MGTOW.’ I guess that way they can feel a sense of belonging? We’re all MGTOWs and now we can commiserate over girls or dating or what have you.
I suppose it’s different for everyone, but for me the term ‘MGTOW’ is irrevocably tied to sexually frustrated men filled with bitterness toward the opposite sex.
I realize there are plenty of MGTOWs who aren’t that way, but the ones who are are so vocal it’s hard to not get that picture stamped in your mind without spending a ton of time socializing with MGTOWs, studying them, or otherwise inserting yourself into the nuances of MGTOW cultural stratification.”
The whole MGTOW scene itself was (and is) just generally prone to attract scammers and other ne’er do wells, for reasons I described here:
“It seems to me a lot of weird drama and cult nonsense starts out with a good idea–in this case, “focus on yourself, it’s OK to be single, and base your self-worth on things other than external validation.” It’s when people start trying to make themselves “leaders” and make money off of it that it gets cancerous. Wouldn’t it be an easy way to scam people? When some guy starts saying, “Hey, men! You need to think for yourself and make your own value! That’s why you need to donate to my forums and buy my books!” isn’t that suspicious? When stuff like that starts to happen, you have self-appointed gurus more interested in self-aggrandizement and making money instead of actually going their own way.
This is why MGTOWs tend to cultivate resentment towards women and “feminism” instead of simple detachment and actually going one’s own way. If a guy actually DOES go his own way and stops caring about women–i.e, he doesn’t even hate them at all, just concentrates on his own interests and happiness–why would he donate to some MGTOW youtuber or buy MGTOW books? He’d spend his time and money on things he actually enjoys instead of some rando’s Patreon or another self-published “Why Women Suck” screed on Amazon. Thus, many MGTOWs have a vested financial interest in ensuring men don’t *actually* go their own way.”
A couple of other guys, some conservative ones, made these observations some time before I did, actually, and I found out about ‘em after doing some research. I have to give them some credit here, namely a guy named Spotsworth:
“Of course the audience for MGTOW is very small. The advocates are helpless and friendless. Don’t believe me? Get into a discussion with them. Join up and be part of the discussion. You’ll soon find yourself in with anti-semitic conspiracy fans, middle aged con artists and spotty youths planning their imaginary adventures.”
As Spotsworth continued to say, genuine MGTOW ideology isn’t really sustainable, at least for an individual, in the long run:
“What happens to these men is that they take girlfriends or they get married. They move on from being bitter bachelors and leave their blogs behind. Even very popular blogs such as Eternal Bachelor suddenly stop. You don’t really think these guys are going to whine about women forever, do you? No, people eventually move on and get on with their lives. MGTOW is simply an Internet reflection of what a small percentage of men go through on their way to settling down with a woman.”
Proof of this, IMO, can be seen in how rabidly those types attack anyone who points this stuff out, and even just doesn’t agree with them entirely. I’ve avoided most of that, though there have been a few MGTOWs in my comment section who made themselves appear pretty dumb. One old-school manosphere guy, Leap of a Beta, made some mild criticisms of MGTOW in passing, and those ended up being his angriest critics:
“I expected to get blasted overwhelmingly by manospambots of the PUA and game persuasion. The reason I had that expectation was because it was an article about Freedom Porn and the lifestyle of a hedonist, for which I primarily associate with PUA’s. I also always thought that most of my lurkers came from the realm of hedonism associated with pleasures of the flesh, but apparently the outspoken ones come from the realm of hedonism that centers their empty pursuits along other lines. Because lets be honest, there’s a great deal more to the Freedom Porn lifestyle than just chasing pussy.
I should have known the MRA and MGTOW’s would read far more into the article than I expected or intended. Using their awesome abilities of projection to completely miss the points I was making and started a short little forum post (link below). Some people there actually agreed with me, and some had intelligent disagreements, but the overall majority read about like this: “Oh, Chad said he wants to come home to some woman every day! He must want to get married, go through divorce rape, never see his 2.1 kids! Lolololzlzlzlolz! YOUNG NEWB! Thaz nawt how da wimmenz work!”
In general, by this point, my friends, I hope you can see why I started moving away from the manosphere in all its aspects—“Red Pill,” MGTOW, all of it—by this point, even before 2015. Hypocritical drama within the community as a whole, hypocrisy on an individual level—out of rational self interest, there was just too much negativity for me to bother with, and I suspect a lot of the people reading this essay, initially sympathetic or not, might feel the same. And if it’s manospherians themselves saying this, not their feminist foes, it’s not too easy to brush off, either. Once again, the guys from the old site “Fly Fresh and Young,” manospherians themselves, offer the best response to anyone claiming you ought to be a manospambot:
“Life is too short as it is, why waste it being a loser?”
True enough—I didn’t want to be a loser, so I ducked out of the manosphere scene before it could get its claws too deeply in me. But there’s something as bad as being a loser, and that’s being a psycho—and the manosphere was full of those too, providing yet another reason for me to GTFO of even association with it.
C: Batshit insanity
I don’t want to spend more time than I have to on this subject because it’s so distasteful, so long story short: When I started to do some more research on what ideologies were common in the manosphere and what many, or at least a significant minority, of its participants believed, I found enough creepy, psychotic pedo garbage to send me running away screaming from that scene. Jay Hammer’s famous essay arguing against the age of consent, now gone but archived on another manosphere blog, which was also put on archive.is, was the most famous:
But let’s just say he wasn’t the only one. There was another guy, “TheAntiFeminist,” who made pretty much his whole career complaining about age of consent laws and defending pedophiles. I’m just gonna link to the Wayback archives and you can read the articles yourself, because just quoting some of his shit would get the FBI on my case:
And of course, it wouldn’t be complete without him defending Epstein:
His blog was a lot more active in the early 10s but the Wayback machine hasn’t archived those as much, so I can’t provide links, but his more recent articles are a pretty good depiction of the kind of crap that horrified me. Look, I’m not even going to get into a debate over “male sexuality” or the age of consent or whatever, but from a purely practical perspective, it’s simply not a good idea to be even remotely associated with this nonsense. I’ve got way better things to do with my time than defend Jeffrey friggin’ Epstein. And again, simply as a practical matter, being associated with people who do might make me look like a creep by association, so there’s absolutely no loss to dump the whole garbage scene. And all these are just examples, you can find plenty more of manospherians generally being freaks. You So Would had to call one out for being a total creep towards young girls:
Another weirdo “masculinist” approved of mass rape, condoning what the Soviets did in Germany following WWII:
There was at least one IRL murderer who hung around a lot on MGTOW sites, along with a lot of racist and psycho nazi-type communities:
Speaking of MGTOWs, watching how those guys behaved on other sites and forums further convinced me manosphere ideology in general and MGTOW in particular was useless. There was one on GameFAQs who frequented some of the Castlevania boards I went to who just behaved so atrociously it made me start thinking whether “Going Your Own Way” actually meant going crazy. You couldn’t have a discussion about CV games with female protagonists (like Order of Ecclesia) without this guy flipping out before he got banned (and eventually came back under a new username):
And of course you can’t forget Elliot Rodgers. I’ve written before how he represented a good chunk of manosphere ideology (https://gunlord500.wordpress.com/2014/05/27/giving-up-on-misogyny/ , also see https://gunlord500.wordpress.com/2014/05/28/misogyny-and-misandry/ for why ironically enough manosphere crap tends to lead to misandry too), but other folks also noted it—this article from Tom Morris is a good rundown:
But yeah, seeing that creepazoid on the news and reading his manifesto which parroted a lot of manosphere talking points was enough to make me think the scene was cancer.
Additionally, there’s also the fact that many manospherians, red-pillers, MGTOWs, etc. don’t just hate women but plenty of other people too. You don’t have to go too far to see them praising Hitler or screaming about how Jews or blacks or whoever are inferior and we need to bring back segregation or whatever. This happened to Roissy, one of the most famous “game/Pick-Up Artist” blogs—I’m not sure if this is true or not, but another one in the scene said his blog had been taken over by a white nationalist:
“the guy who started CH is long gone, it’s supposedly now run by 5-6 writers (which is fine, a few blogs have multiple writers). well, one of the writer’s happens to be wn (white nationalist) by the name of firepower who is one of the primary contributer’s to a wn site. now, i’ve had a few people e-mail me about the “nationalist” posts coming from CH, and i simply tell them the truth. done and done.”
In any case though, you could also see that kind of race nonsense popping up at other places. For instance, see a couple old threads at /r/mgtow blaming DA JOOZ for feminism or SJWism and all that:
As well as a charmer from goingyourownway with a “Happy Merchant” avatar making fun of the Holocaust: https://archive.is/zE5kC
And so on, and so forth. Those are just three examples, but the problem was so bad a ton of other blogs discussed it. Aaron Sleazy and Troy Francis (both members of the ‘seduction’ community) had a couple good posts on the issue. First, Aaron Sleazy, who didn’t write this himself but allowed a guest poster to discuss some issues:
“In reality, Roissy was just another regular DC bar hopper like the DC Bachelor (who later revealed himself to be Roosh), but that didn’t stop him from being completely delusional. In Roissy in DC (now Heartiste), Roissy took the extreme version of evo-psych alpha/beta scare tactics and added a combination of hard-right politics and Steve Sailor racial HBD science. Does this now sound completely incoherent to you? Welcome to the manosphere.
Incoherent is the key word. Roissy, Roosh, and all the subsequent copycat blogs all had a design for life that basically meant acting like an obnoxious, thuggish frat guy. But whenever evidence was presented to them, especially to Roissy, that guys who didn’t act this way also got chicks, the manosphere would backtrack and redefine the definition of alpha from a dominant caveman dude to that of a guy who can score lots of girls, regardless of looks and behavior. The guys who look like pussies and don’t use game but still get laid, therefore, are actually alphas. But these “alphas” are also pussies, Roosh and Roissy said, so you shouldn’t act like them. Act like a dominant caveman.
The anti-feminism and racial politics would garner Roissy and the manosphere a larger audience for a temporary point of time, but it was inevitable that the jumbled game philosophy that was at its core would be its undoing. Although Roissy was not involved in the embarrassing DC meetup, his fingerprints are all over the pathetic thug behavior of all the major players in the post-Roosh/Roissy generation of manosphere bloggers. These guys prioritize the imitation of dominant meathead behaviors over actual success with women. In fact, it’s evident that they have little success at all, but it was surprising just how sloppy and clueless a blog like University of Man could be in blatantly revealing that reality. Generational rot indeed.
The biggest smoking gun, however, was the deflation of the Alpha boogeyman concept. These guys certainly act like super-alphas storming around ready to take your woman, but their results are no better than the average man they abhor so much. In fact, they are probably worse than average, if you took 15 men with no knowledge of game and dropped them into a bar crawling scenario similar to that of the Manosphere DC meetup. Imitation of behaviors can’t invent attraction.
After the the DC Meetup got slammed, the University of Man shut down, and it’s now evident that the manosphere is dying. Let’s look at the evidence:
Roosh has transitioned to a lifestyle blog: returnofkings.com. In his writings, he has continually distanced himself from Roissy and barely believes in game.
Roissy dances in the corner alone. MRAs have disavowed him, and the current generation of gamers doesn’t like his racial politics.
The next generation of manosphere bloggers are realizing the lameness of the cause and are dropping like flies. University of Man is dead. Another blog, Alpha Persona, closed recently.
These quotes from the closing post of Alpha Persona are very telling:
It just isn’t what it used to be anymore, though. A lot of readers are keyboard warriors, a lot of readers are just looking for a place to be angry, and the number of you who actually practice this shit and work on yourselves and try to be better is frighteningly slim.
There have been too many game blogs for a while now. I get this email all the time, “Dude, I’m starting a game blog – help me out/link to me/help me name it/come up with a gimmick?
The facade is now gone, and the manosphere stands exposed for what it is: absent the evo-psych window dressing and racial science, it’s just the avocation of a 20-something frat boy lifestyle, with meaningless distinctions like wearing a suit and sex tourist traveling. Every guy who goes out and approaches girls on a Saturday night now thinks he can be an expert. The headless chicken remains of the manosphere will have dozens of blogs of this type, but no more relevant ones. It’s just a small, insignificant world, much like it was in the beginning with the DC Bachelor. Full circle.”
That pretty much echoed my observations. Like I mentioned in the preceding paragraphs, too many manospherians acted too pathetic for me to maintain my faith in their teachings. The number of losers combined with the bizarre and unnecessary bigotry against a lot of other groups convinced me that misogyny in general and manosphere talking points in particular were just unnecessary. Troy Francis had a succinct takedown of that crap generally:
“Whacked-out theories about race and racial superiority are similarly flawed, as well as being disgusting attacks on our fellow human-beings and this site has zero tolerance for them. They are also entirely irrelevant. I don’t go to blogs to read this garbage — I want to learn how to pick-up girls, how to get ripped, how to make money and improve my life. In my view, the manosphere should be a positive space dedicated to men’s self-improvement, not an online air-raid shelter for a bunch of nut-jobs waiting for the revolution.”
If the manosphere actually was a ‘positive space,’ it wouldn’t have so many problems. But as it happened, it always was, and never became anything more than, an “online air-raid shelter for a bunch of nut-jobs.” So, once again, no harm in leaving it.
I wonder, though. Why did the manosphere become such a magnet for all kinds of bigotry rather than just misogyny? Is there anything about hating women that encourages you to hate black, Jewish, etc. men as well? I think there is, actually.
See, one big part of manosphere ideology is evolutionary biology, mocked as “biotroofs” by people who disagree with it, which of course happens to be most people. According to manospambots like Roissy and others, women evolved to be dumber and more useless than men for a variety of reasons—they endured “less selection pressure” or whatever. Thus, a lot of these guys (Pro-Male/Anti-Feminist Tech was the most notorious of these) posted studies about how men had higher IQs than women or surveys showing men liked STEM fields better or statistics on how men won most nobel prizes to prove women were biologically inferior and would never equal men not only physically but intellectually as well. I’m not even gonna bother refuting that stuff, I’ll just point out it’s *the exact same reasoning* white nationalists use to proclaim whites superior to everyone else and blacks and Jews to be inferior and/or evil. They claim that cold winters in Europe (lol) selected for intelligence among whites, whereas blacks never evolved to be anything other than lazy, stupid, and violent, and also that Jews evolved to be parasites because they didn’t have a homeland for much of their history. Honestly, just look at this post from Stormfront:
Just replace “whites” with “men” and “non-whites” with “women” to get something that wouldn’t be out of place at Roissy’s or any other manosphere blog. So it’s absolutely not surprising at all that the manosphere found itself infected with all kinds of bigotry in addition to misogyny—the same ways of thinking that justified its misogyny would by necessity also justify every other kind of nonsense.
Now, I’m sure manospherians, or other rightoids generally in fact, would say all these studies are true and that women/non-whites/etc. are inferior. Whatever. Like I said, I’m not even gonna try to refute that nonsense here, though in the next section I will explain why it’s not consistent with other rightoid beliefs. I’m just going to point out that EVEN IF all, or any, this crap were true, it would make accomplishing anything for its adherents much, much harder. The end conclusion of manosphere ideology is that white guys are the real Masters of the Universe and ought to rule everyone else. Problem is, there just aren’t that many white guys compared to everyone else. Maybe you guys had a shot at ruling the world before WWII, but at this point, no matter how “superior” you might think you are and no matter how much your “technology” can help, women *and* non-white men in general can just overwhelm you through sheer power of numbers. So then you can roll back your goals a little and try to fight feminism only, proclaiming (at least publicly) that All Men Are Equal for that purpose. Problem is, since the arguments proving “female inferiority” also “prove” non-white inferiority, you’ll want to avoid those kinds of arguments, which undercuts your own cause.
With all that said, I’d like to end this section with one last good analysis from “Point Stick, Vent Spleen” I found which provides one more reason why the manosphere is so prone to these kinds of bizarre extremisms—the echo-chamber nature of it is really unhealthy.
“The “men’s movement”, like many extreme political movements and religious cults, tends to polarise and indoctrinate people. What I think tends to happen is that people who feel hurt or aggrieved go looking for support, find the MRAs, and as they spend more and more time in that movement they are encouraged to generalise a single bad experience into a hatred of all women. It seems that immersing oneself in an ideological echo chamber is a very good way of insulating oneself from reality, and replacing it with a delusional reality constructed by the group; furthermore, this process is self-reinforcing (as people are encouraged to view everything that happens through an ideological lens, they force events to fit their mental model and then take that fitting as confirmation of the model’s accuracy) and tends to only result in further group polarisation in the long run. There is an extent to which all cultural norms behave this way – that’s how the patriarchy/kyriarchy works, after all – but it seems to be much more pronounced, and even more dangerous, in cloistered groups like the MRM.”
I think you can see this in the examples I’ve given above. Spend too much time among manosphere misfits and you start believing that feminism is responsible for all the ills of the world, so anything even remotely related to feminism is evil, and if feminists think “maybe pedophilia is bad,” the circlejerk which has primed you to think anything they say is wrong will also prime you to defend pedos and make a fool (or worse) of yourself. Granted, there are more than a few cracks in the echo chamber—I’ve posted a lot of quotes from manospherians themselves who were annoyed by the overall patheticness and often perversion they saw in that scene. But to no-one’s surprise, the reasonable manospherians eventually left the manosphere or were driven out of it. I think these kinds of echo chambers and circle jerks are constructed in such a way that they can only reinforce their negative aspects—whenever someone challenges the dominant deviant worldviews and ideologies, there’s no healthy debate because these guys are primed to call anyone who disagrees with them a mangina or whiteknight or simp or whatever. So instead of the smarter guys leading their fellows out of the abyss, the smarter ones get called whatever shaming language of the day is a synonym for “gender traitor” and dismissed.
Thankfully, this never happened to me—but again, because I never got too involved with that scene. All I can say is that I’m glad I didn’t, and that I hope the manosphere guys who were starting to get skeptical of the nonsense they were seeing, like Thumpy and the 3 Bromigos fella, are doing as well as I am after having left it behind.